Author Topic: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights  (Read 1249 times)

Offline Mohan

  • Administrator
  • Power Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 204
  • Karma: +12/-1
    • Law Student
Mohan
Before engaging in a comments fight, make sure your English is better than your opponents'. :D

Offline Superfly

  • Ascendant
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Karma: +5/-1
  • This will keep the kids away from the fireplace.
Re: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 09:57:48 PM »
Most in China know nothing about his passing either.
TBH Utopia is a long way-a-way where everyone has equal rights.
C
Release the hounds.

Offline Captain Walker

  • Warrior for Rights!
  • Administrator
  • Divergent Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 407
  • Karma: +7/-0
    • The Captain's Watch
  • About me: LLB(Hons) 2.1 in 2006 from OU. Hobbies: addiction to Neflix and Amazon. Music: From epic stuff to head banging rock. Food Favs: Chinese, Indian, Malaysian, good steaks, Subway, KFC, Sushi. Fav Hols: Beach resorts. Fav Cars: Nissan GTR anything, Bentleys.
Re: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2017, 12:18:51 PM »
The 'enjoyment' of Rights, is a difficult one to pin down. We may have Rights protected in law or international treaties. When it comes to enjoying those rights, I think it is about protection of those rights? Protection from what? The powerful and those who would infringe our rights. Not much 'enjoyment' in protecting our own rights, as it usually involves a fight.

Democratic rights - a term used loosely by many to mean various things. Whilst many Rights grow in systems of democracy and are protected, the sources of those rights can come from elsewhere i.e. nothing to do with democracies. The UK is often referred to by average folk as a 'democracy'. However it is't a pure democracy. It is a social-democracy, which means there are principles of socialism mixed in with democratic principles.

Some of the big issues are:
1. Who protects your Rights? It certainly isn't the Courts - it's not their job i.e. that's where it's decided whether you have justice in your favour. But the courts have no duty to protect you as an individual and you certainly can't sue the courts for negligence.
2. If it's 'you' to protect your Rights, what burdens can you carry in doing that?
3. Do 'you' actually know your Rights at all? I still hear ordinary folk barking that it's their 'human right to smoke' (tobacco products). It isn't. They have no such Right. And people in general don't really know their basic consumer rights.
4. When it comes to infringement of Rights that are well defined, to what extent can the State do that lawfully, despite one's moral protestations or public outcry?
5. What happens when a State refuses to give due regard Rights of individuals or groups, protected in International Law?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 01:53:02 PM by Captain Walker »
Our democracy has been fracked.

Offline Superfly

  • Ascendant
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Karma: +5/-1
  • This will keep the kids away from the fireplace.
Re: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2017, 09:18:56 PM »
Forgive the following, I've had a drink. Some would say i have a problem.

Democracy and the rights associated with it is interesting an area, especially since the recent GE.

It seems (to me) that labour and the labour supporters don't actually believe in this. Corbyn still out there in the field trying to gain votes, and his supporters stating that Tories should go blah blah blah.

Same with Brexit. I mean as a nation, we voted to leave but those rights are being challenged at every turn. Where are the rights of those who voted to leave being told they didn't know what they were voting for. I appreciate it is opinion, but this isn't democracy to my mind. This is about the team coming second place trying everything in their power to say the winners cheated in some way. I find it very weird. 

As for rights, I agree with Walker. I believe in living morally which co-inside with rights associated with living. Unfortunately those without those morals or those in power do not sometimes think like this so need laws to keep them in check.

This is a massive subject, and I really would not do it justice so leaving it here.
Peace out
C

 
Release the hounds.

Offline Captain Walker

  • Warrior for Rights!
  • Administrator
  • Divergent Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 407
  • Karma: +7/-0
    • The Captain's Watch
  • About me: LLB(Hons) 2.1 in 2006 from OU. Hobbies: addiction to Neflix and Amazon. Music: From epic stuff to head banging rock. Food Favs: Chinese, Indian, Malaysian, good steaks, Subway, KFC, Sushi. Fav Hols: Beach resorts. Fav Cars: Nissan GTR anything, Bentleys.
Re: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2017, 12:46:32 PM »
... .... ..

Same with Brexit. I mean as a nation, we voted to leave but those rights are being challenged at every turn. Where are the rights of those who voted to leave being told they didn't know what they were voting for. I appreciate it is opinion, but this isn't democracy to my mind. This is about the team coming second place trying everything in their power to say the winners cheated in some way. I find it very weird. 
..................

One of the big issues I see regularly, is about the meanings behind words and assumptions arising. 'Democracy' - what do people think it is, and what is it really? For some ordinary folk out there, it's only about being able to vote for their leader or party to take the lead. Surely, it's much bigger than that.

Then what are 'Rights'? Is a Right something everybody believes they have a natural right to? It is isn't.

I'm trying to stay clear of politics in this response, even when I say that people had certain rights to vote in GE and Brexit referendum. However, it surprised many ordinary people that the referendum decision was not legally binding. So - 'What's the point of voting for something that wasn't guaranteed decide our membership of the EU ?', many asked themselves. Hey ho - the gov't agreed to honour the referendum vote to leave. But it's not so simple as we are seeing i.e. it's subject to a whole load of 'horse trading' with Europe and could drag out over the next 10 years. It depends on who you believe really.

Democracy is about a system of checks and balances - as against a totalitarian sort of State such as North Korea. In a democracy, people are allowed to questions things, seek answers, hold others to account and challenge issues in the courts - and there is a fair degree of transparency (never perfect of course). People are also allowed to protest, and even to go on Facebook and say some pretty ugly things which wouldn't be allowed in other countries, say in the Middle East.

The Trump election brought out the worst on both sides. The event showed what was hidden in dark cupboards of so-called 'democracy' in America. Do people recall the riots and name calling etc? Mention of the Trump Election outcome runs the risk that people runaway with pre-occupations with Hilary and Trump etc. I take no sides. Grateful if we don't do that. [Site Admin may put up a Politics category].

What politicians (and everybody else) in general need to understand, is that the exercise of power requires proper restraint, balance and accountability. Hence 'the rule of law', as a legal concept becomes so very important. Mohan and I are often flummoxed about how politicians in a third world country (Trinidad & Tobago), many of them senior lawyers - analogous by seniority to QCs in the UK - are clueless to the concept of 'the rule of law'. Many of them bellow about 'the rule of law' but they are really referring to 'application or enforcement of the law'. I've only focused on the legal concept of 'the rule of law' as one cornerstone of a proper democratic system. Yes - it's never perfect - and it's certainly not the only cornerstone.

The first and last book to read in law, is "The Rule of Law" by Tom Bingham. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rule-Law-Tom-Bingham/dp/014103453X


You have Rights - but there are only two I know of that are absolutely protected in law. All the rest are subject to derogations and restrictions etc. In extreme circumstances many of your Rights can be suspended.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 12:49:20 PM by Captain Walker »
Our democracy has been fracked.

Offline Little Miss Chatterbox

  • Power Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 135
  • Karma: +20/-1
  • About me: Starting W202 with the OU, October 2017.
Re: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2017, 03:33:18 PM »
.........
You have Rights - but there are only two I know of that are absolutely protected in law. All the rest are subject to derogations and restrictions etc. In extreme circumstances many of your Rights can be suspended....
.... The first and last book to read in law, is "The Rule of Law" by Tom Bingham.

This must be some kind of omen for me to get back reading this book. It's less than 200 pages and had it since about 2015/2016


[18:19 2017-07-16 Modified by Site Admin. Tip if using the quote button you can edit out a fair amount of the quoted text. No probs. Everybody is learning.]
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 06:19:44 PM by Site Admin »

Offline Superfly

  • Ascendant
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Karma: +5/-1
  • This will keep the kids away from the fireplace.
Re: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2017, 06:54:05 PM »
Iv'e read it at least five times, seem to find something new every time i read it.

As for the Americans, jeez. Youtube Antifa, they accuse the right as being Nazi's and Fascists. They really go mad for it over there.

The interesting thing about the rule of law is that, (and i stand to be corrected on this point), only recently been mentioned in legislation yet the meaning has been around for some time. Is this because it is more of a concept?
Release the hounds.

Offline Captain Walker

  • Warrior for Rights!
  • Administrator
  • Divergent Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 407
  • Karma: +7/-0
    • The Captain's Watch
  • About me: LLB(Hons) 2.1 in 2006 from OU. Hobbies: addiction to Neflix and Amazon. Music: From epic stuff to head banging rock. Food Favs: Chinese, Indian, Malaysian, good steaks, Subway, KFC, Sushi. Fav Hols: Beach resorts. Fav Cars: Nissan GTR anything, Bentleys.
Re: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2017, 08:16:47 PM »
Iv'e read it at least five times, seem to find something new every time i read it.

As for the Americans, jeez. Youtube Antifa, they accuse the right as being Nazi's and Fascists. They really go mad for it over there.

The interesting thing about the rule of law is that, (and i stand to be corrected on this point), only recently been mentioned in legislation yet the meaning has been around for some time. Is this because it is more of a concept?
C

Five times - now that must be some sort of record. I know what you mean when you read a good book like that over, you do discover something new or better appreciate something in there.

I've not seen 'the rule of law' mentioned in legislation as such, but I have heard it referred to in debates leading up to Bills etc. The concept goes back to the Magna Carta methinks. It's also a very large concept. I think I may have a mindmap of it somewhere. Will look, else Mohan better have one available! Else amma give him another 'kicking up the jacksie'. LOL
Our democracy has been fracked.

Offline Mohan

  • Administrator
  • Power Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 204
  • Karma: +12/-1
    • Law Student
Re: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2017, 08:33:19 PM »


I've not seen 'the rule of law' mentioned in legislation as such, but I have heard it referred to in debates leading up to Bills etc.

The concept of the rule of law is in many different legislation, even in Constitutions.
Mohan
Before engaging in a comments fight, make sure your English is better than your opponents'. :D

Offline Captain Walker

  • Warrior for Rights!
  • Administrator
  • Divergent Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 407
  • Karma: +7/-0
    • The Captain's Watch
  • About me: LLB(Hons) 2.1 in 2006 from OU. Hobbies: addiction to Neflix and Amazon. Music: From epic stuff to head banging rock. Food Favs: Chinese, Indian, Malaysian, good steaks, Subway, KFC, Sushi. Fav Hols: Beach resorts. Fav Cars: Nissan GTR anything, Bentleys.
Re: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2017, 09:08:22 PM »

I've not seen 'the rule of law' mentioned in legislation as such, but I have heard it referred to in debates leading up to Bills etc.

The concept of the rule of law is in many different legislation, even in Constitutions.

Sure - it's in there but have you seen the word 'the rule of law' written in any legislation; primary or secondary? I haven't. For it to be 'mentioned' it must be in the form 'the rule of law'. It's a concept sitting in the backdrop but orchestrates the wording of the law in various ways. If you have seen the words 'the rule of law' in written in any form of legislation, do update me with a reference.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 09:11:35 PM by Captain Walker »
Our democracy has been fracked.

Offline Mohan

  • Administrator
  • Power Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 204
  • Karma: +12/-1
    • Law Student
Re: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2017, 09:15:08 PM »
Preamble: (d) Trinidad and Tobago Constitution which is also a primary Act of Parliament

"d. recognise that men and institutions remain free only when freedom is founded upon respect for moral and spiritual values and the rule of law; "
Mohan
Before engaging in a comments fight, make sure your English is better than your opponents'. :D

Offline Captain Walker

  • Warrior for Rights!
  • Administrator
  • Divergent Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 407
  • Karma: +7/-0
    • The Captain's Watch
  • About me: LLB(Hons) 2.1 in 2006 from OU. Hobbies: addiction to Neflix and Amazon. Music: From epic stuff to head banging rock. Food Favs: Chinese, Indian, Malaysian, good steaks, Subway, KFC, Sushi. Fav Hols: Beach resorts. Fav Cars: Nissan GTR anything, Bentleys.
Re: Not every human being enjoys democratic rights
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2017, 09:57:06 PM »
Preamble: (d) Trinidad and Tobago Constitution which is also a primary Act of Parliament

"d. recognise that men and institutions remain free only when freedom is founded upon respect for moral and spiritual values and the rule of law; "

Wow!! That's amazing!! The colonial masters did for that Rock what they didn't do for themselves. Jeez.
Our democracy has been fracked.